Some Notes about Technology and other stuff in Redwall

Ol'random · 2018-07-15 11:01:29 PM

So, this topic's been on my mind for some time - I think since someone made a comment about technology levels on the muck - and since I've always had an affinity for history (more like obsession honestly), I've put together this sort very (VERY) brief overview of it all, really to give some ideas about Role-playing and what to look into if one wants more inspiration for how certain groups are like (like the LP, the Redwall Order, etc..) outside of the books and the wiki & forums!

First off, I should say that Redwall is not restricted to any one period of time (Early Medieval, High Medieval, etc...). After all, Brian Jacques pulled most of his ideas from people he knew and English folklore; he was making fantasy and not a historical epic (if the all the animals didn't make that clear). However, that doesn't mean that all the items, weapons, clothing or even food he mentions is made up or didn't exist - in fact almost every weapon, armor, or most clothing is real in some form (even if he didn't know of it at the time).

The primary influences that I can tell are:

12-13th Century European Monasticism for Redwall,

Victorian British Military and later (to even the 1940s British Air Force - Brian always said the Hares were based off of RAF pilots - and the Royal Air Force certainly isn't anything close to medieval) For the Long Patrol,

Renaissance to the Pirate Age (~1500s - 1700s more or less) for the boats and any sort of, well, pirating beasts,

And like any sort of actual 'horde' in history from prehistory all the way to the early 19th century (the Cossack rebellions in Russia really being the last sort of thing like that to Europe (and really that was only in Russia)) - everything from the Babylonians to Gallic tribes to the Vikings fit this bill for most vermin.

As for technology in Redwall the biggest difference I see between our world and theirs (beside the whole no human speaking animal thing) is the lack of beasts of burden. Sure, there's a horse in the first book, but there's also a mention of Portugal, so I would take everything in that book with a grain of salt.
There's no donkeys, cattle, or horses (again besides the first book) - which means there's really no easy way to move heavy things, especially over long distances.
I honestly believe that the most important innovation by humans besides controlling fire and the wheel is the use of beasts of burden.
However, lack of this doesn't mean complete lack of ability to do any real amazing building or having an extremely complex culture - just look at Ancient Egypt or Japan.
But Redwall ain't based of either of those, now is it?
It's mainly European. And Europe for most of its history has had beasts of burden. Removing that innovation could really have any sort of effect on the technology level - even perhaps ending up the way Redwall is. Who knows?

The second biggest difference is the lack of gunpowder.
Gunpowder was used in European combat as early as the 12th century - most arms and armor that we tend to think as utterly separate from gunpowder actually were contemporaries of each other (like for instance the classic image of a knight in full plate atop his horse:

was widely used after the matchlock was invented and adopted on the battlefield:

The effect of this on the world of Redwall is a little less clear and just something I wanted to note...

Now, some common misconceptions about armor:

1. Armor is Extremely heavy.
Well, it is. But in full plate a fit person can easily jump on a horse and do handstands - an extremely fit person can climb walls and run miles. Think about it - if armor restricted your movement anything more than minimum would it be so widely used? No. It was made to fit most of the time, and made to move easily.

2. You can chop through chainmail and its pretty bad in general.
No. Well made Maile is nigh on indestructible to most people. Of course, a well placed lance from horse back or arrow from a longbow (with poundage of more than 100lbs) can pierce it. (Even more so for plate armor - that stuff really is hard to get through. An you can't just cut through any of this stuff. Pretty much basic physics are in play here (there are however examples of Japanese swords cutting through metal but it's almost always sheet metal and a very sharp sword for show- not a specially forged chest piece or a sword that is sharpened that is practical for use in combat).)

3. Padded Armor is Bad Armor.
No. Its actually really useful - and can stop most cuts and stabs (try cutting through 10+ layers of cloth (don't actually do this but you get the idea) in one cut or stab). It's cheap. It's easy to fix. It can help reduce exhaustion (after all other armors are still metal and do still weigh something and that still affects someone after like a day in it). Some form of it was always worn under all the other medieval armors - it stopped blunt force trauma and could ease up the rubbing and chaffing of more poorly fitted armor.

4. Leather Armor was a thing
This isn't really something I see in Redwall as, well... being all animals and stuff... and no livestock and all that, but still is a pet peeve of mine. Just think about how expensive leather was or even is. And how difficult it is mend. And how it offers no protection against blunt force trauma. For prosperity's sake there are some examples of leather armor, but it is so different from what the modern world thinks of its pretty much something completely different.

5. Helmets are Optional
What's the most important part of the body? The head!
What's the easiest way to kill someone? The head!
Helmets are good. Helmets are cool. Remember the Helmets.
(If there's anything besides a weapon needed in a fight, its a helmet.)

Anyway, that's the mental vomit I have on the subject(s).
(honestly my real goal is to get people to start researching and looking into this stuff more and more as it really is fascinating!)

Last edited by Ol'random (2018-07-15 11:10:27 PM)

warrior_Otter_maid · 2018-07-16 07:11:29 AM

Badgers are the only ones I seen wear full armor in like major battles.

The champion of Redwall also , I think...had full armor

Wasn't a cannon mentioned in one of the last couple books, or maybe it wasn;t but it wasn't too powerfull don't think.

Heros like helmets...not so much vermin...well some maybe

aeysin · 2018-07-16 04:12:42 PM

Thank you for this research! I've always liked how flexible the RW world can be re: its tech, because, like ya' said, it's not set in a real-world time period. Also the universe is huge, so it makes sense that groups would be at different stages of tech development--i.e., Salamandastron is coastal and neighbors at least one busy seaport, so it's probably going to be exposed to more advanced tech (due to trade) than landlocked rural places like the abbey.

Last time management said anything about IC tech, if I remember right: as long as something's not absurd or going to create an unfair advantage for one group, go for it! Sooo like... AR-15? Nah. But if a primitive cannon were to show up in a pirate battle...

Karth Riverbark · 2018-07-17 03:22:42 PM

cool
Gives me an idea...maybe some bad guys can test a weak primate cannon on some good guys and blow a hole in the ship...could be cool for when some good guys come for help and during a storm!YA...they could lose their little ship but hey they would get a new one from the LP or something that much better

Ol'random · 2018-07-17 03:33:25 PM

I don't actually think there were any cannons in the books - been looking through the last few ones, and haven't found anything yet.

But, if you guys are thinking about cannons, I'd suggest looking into early medieval cannons - they existed from about 1200 onward and were widely used as siege weapons, long before being put on any boat. They were used to knock down walls and other fortifications. However, they were pretty darn dangerous to fire, as they had a chance of just blowing up and killing the firing crew. Hence not being put on ships at the time.

The type of technology and development I'd really like to see is stuff from the classical period to the fall of the Roman Empire.
As far as I can tell, there haven't been any major empires in the world of Redwall, and likewise there hasn't been any fall of said empire. So who knows how city states could have developed here and there? The LP is the biggest example I think of this, with their uniforms and rank systems and such (as a side note, I'd love to overhaul the LP's uniforms from the more modern style they are to a more late Victorian style... ).

Ximena · 2018-07-20 02:36:26 PM

And they used herbs in healing...maybe on the western shores they have figured out other healer terms.

In the books it was herbs, and they knew basic first aid. I know in the cartoon it shows the abbot doing CPR...I don't think that was around and it was not in the books..now they could rub the back or hard paw slam to the back maybe, I don;t know....a skilled healer can indeed find a pulse and they also used like a lantern to see if a beast had breath still, fog would show up and they would tell hey that one is alive still.

But yes gather herbs and make pastes of herbs and ground the herbs ect. Thats what had in books and the author even spoke of herb use also.

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#1 2018-07-15 11:01:29 PM

Some Notes about Technology and other stuff in Redwall

#2 2018-07-16 07:11:29 AM

Re: Some Notes about Technology and other stuff in Redwall

#3 2018-07-16 04:12:42 PM

Re: Some Notes about Technology and other stuff in Redwall

#4 2018-07-17 03:22:42 PM

Re: Some Notes about Technology and other stuff in Redwall

#5 2018-07-17 03:33:25 PM

Re: Some Notes about Technology and other stuff in Redwall

#6 2018-07-20 02:36:26 PM

Re: Some Notes about Technology and other stuff in Redwall

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